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NINE MONTH'S WITH A MICHIGAN SERIAL KILLER

From: Helen Dagner
Date: 2/22/2004
Time: 12:04:18 PM
Remote Name: 152.163.252.101

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NINE MONTHS-With a Michigan -SERIALKILLER.....

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Posted by Helen Dagner on February 21, 2004 at 14:41:52:

1976-77 Oakland County Child Slayings

"In 1976 and 1977, over the course of a thirteen-month period, two boys and two girls, ages ten through twelve, were brutally murdered in Michigan's Oakland County. Their violent deaths triggered the largest murder investigation the state had seen." ......now a ColdCase.....could this be a NEW clue??

Below is unedited transcript segments from a lady, Helen Dagner, who claims to have known the killer. She has been in contact with authorities in the Oakland County area. She contacted me via the "ColdCases Yahoo discussion group" It is our hope to see this case investigated and hopefully come to some conclusion.

TESTIMONY by HELEN DAGNER ~ MARCH 2001

During the winter months of 1976-77, four children between the ages of 10- 12 were abducted and killed in towns in and around Oakland County, a suburban area north of Detroit. Authorities said the children were held from 4 to 19 days before being killed. They had all been bathed after being abducted, thus earning the offender the nickname the "BABYSITTER".

VICTIMS:

Mark Stebbins, 12 of Ferndale was last seen alive in an American Legion Hall on February 13, 1976. His body was found February 19, 1976,in a parking lot in Southfield. He was strangled and sexually assaulted, post- mortem, with an object.

Jill Robinson, 12 of Royal Oak ran away from her home December 22, 1976. Her body was found December 26, 1976 dumped along the side of interstate 75 in Troy. She was killed by a single shotgun blast to the face. She was fully clothed and still wearing her backpack when she was found. Kristine Mihelich, 10 was last seen alive January 2, 1977 at 3p.m. at a 7- Eleven store in Berkley. Her fully clothed body was found 19 days later dumped off a rural road in Franklin Village. She had been smothered to death. Timothy king, 11 was last in a Birmingham parking lot March 16, 1977, at around 8:30 p.m. His body was found March 22, 1977 in a shallow ditch in Livonia. He had been suffocated and sexually assaulted post-mortem, with an object.

Click Here For Additonal Victim Info and Area Maps

Now who would do such a horrible crime, and why?...Could it be a home town person? Yes, John lived in Birmingham, attended school, and graduated from High School in Birmingham...and when he worked, it was also in Oakland County... Why did he do this? When I first met John, I didn't know he was a killer , this was september 1991, and although I was married to a police officer, I didn't even know that four children had been murder in Oakland county... I had met John for coffee at a restaurant...it was by invitation, the mother of his child, had asked me if I wanted to meet John, I always went for coffee at that time of day, so I said sure...little did I know what was to become of this meeting. The first question John asked me was so what are you doing with your life...why I said this I will never know...but I said it...oh I'm going to write a book on serial killers...he said that is a horrible idea, how could you stand to be around some one like that? I remember saying, "I'm not judgmental". We weren't through with the first cup of coffee, when he asked what I knew about the Oakland child killings, I said nothing, what do you know? The first thing he told me was the guy really took good care of the children...fed them there favorite foods...cleaned them all up...and was very nice to them. I said, "Well why did he kill them?" John said he was saving them from a life as he knew it...that he was probably living in what should have been a well to do community, yet his mother might have had to baby-sit to make ends meet...I said, "John it almost sounds like you know this guy!" He said well I was interviewed by the original task force...I ask how was that? His reply was they were interviewing every one in his age group... We continued talking...then he said would you like to go for coffee tonight, I could probably help you with your book... I said well what I really need to do is talk to a serial killer...we all laughed, and he said well maybe I can help you to find one.

This started a 9 month, daily coffee meeting with John, 3-6 hrs a day every day... That night I ask John what he thought the killers motive was? He started by telling me, he felt the killer was inadequate socially, most likely couldn't get a girl friend and wound up doing odd jobs like washing dishes. He couldn't get a higher education felt he was cheated out of his rightful place in society...I realized, at some point in the conversation...John was no longer talking in the third person...he was talking in the first! When I was driving John home that night, it started to snow, he was sitting in the front passenger seat, the head lights were cutting a beam in front of us... John went into a trance like state and appear to be completely unaware of anything I said to him or that he was even in the car going down the road...upon arriving at his apartment he seemed to smoothly shift out of the trance state...back to his normal self...the whole thing gave me the creeps. I didn't know at this time that I would see this same thing ...every time I was with John, driving down the road, when it started to snow...It was at least 3 weeks before I realized John was reliving the body drop off nights...once I had this realization...I started asking more questions. He was now talking in the first person...he thought his father had money because he owned 2 homes, but let the family struggle financially, he attended and all boys Catholic school, which made him feel more out of place-something happen at that school, a boy was found dead, and there were rumors of sexual assault, as John told me about this, I felt he had been sexually assaulted...also a boy that was his friend fell off a water tower to his death, John was present when it happen...my thought at the time was John pushed him...he didn't go to the funeral...but his family did. Just prior to the first murder, John's first girl friend, that he had hoped to marry, dumped him-because he was broke, with no prospects....It was then he stared thinking more about the injustices social & financial class system and how he was a victim of it all- He wanted to cause the upper class deep and permanent pain, he decided that since money could be replaced the only way to do it was to strike at their children, besides this was something he could do, were as taking their money was beyond his ability...each killing gave him a sense of power and significance and intellectual superiority...yet some how he felt he was saving the children... At the time of the murders, John was writing a book on the economic collapse, and causing a major depression, ruining the upper class...bringing them down to his level...he was still working on the book when I last saw him. We talked about the murders everyday...a very few words were ever spoken that didn't included the Oakland County child killings...then one night when we were having coffee I told John I was having difficulty...not having ever been to Oakland County...figuring out the body drop off sites...he took 4 place-mats...and drew the areas...I had never seen anyone draw maps like that...they were perfect...just like a store bought map...I was impressed...the next day is when I called the Birmingham police and told them they had to see these maps...and they had to talk to john as he seem to have a lot of inside info. I remember their telling me, they would have to have more info...so that night at coffee I told John, I don't think you are the killer and you need to give me some information about each one of the kids that only the killer ..and the police...and the family would know...he said are you nuts? When he realized I was going to leave...or he thought I was thinking less of him...he said, "I put a chicken bone in Tim's pocket" I told him I thought I had heard that before, then he said "Kristine had little orange or pink things on her slack's...Jill had a book in her back pack and a quarter in her pocket." One of the boys he dropped off with no shoes...he ended up telling me 300 plus matches to the crimes...then the police came up...he took 2 polygraph's...showed them a pass port were he was out of the country at the death of one child...and they let him walk... I told them Johns passport was a fake...that he had wanted to go into the second pass port business...but they just couldn't get be on the pass port. I remember when they called me, late one night at my daughters...he's not are man Helen...I couldn't believe what he was saying...when they mention the pass port...I asked if they had someone who knew about these things, to check it out...they said no...I then asked, did you ask him were he stayed aboard? No....did you ask him were he ate, who he talked to. NO....well did you check with INTER-POL, yes...but they couldn't confirm... I remember thinking...COP'S!!! In fact, I said it a loud...my daughter, a detective, just looked at me...the next day I called Mr. Robinson, in fact John had given me his number, I came right out and told him the name of the book in his daughters back pack...the next day Det. Anger and some other officer came up to Alpena.. I gave them a sample of John's hair and a note book of facts, we drove by John's apartment. They took some photos...I gave them a photo of John...I didn't realize Det. Anger, had his own suspect...David Norberg...who's body he would exhume some 8 years later, trying to match his DNA, to a hair found on Tim...so many years had gone by, but when I read were the DNA didn't match...I had to call Anger again and ask him if John's hair had matched...he didn't even remember my giving it to him...he still works with Jerry Tobias on the case...but he will probably go to his grave...thinking Norberg is the man....butI know better, no child would have gone with Norberg, as he always smelled of liquer. He couldn't feed him self...much less the children, and he certainly wouldn't of bathed the children...and he had nowhere to keep them for the length of time they were held.

8 years after he died, his wife shows up with a necklace...with Kristine's name on it...that was suppose to have been in his personal stuff...it may have been...but it took 8 years to find...when the man didn't own a shoe box full of stuff...besides, I already had met the killer...and yes a child would have gone with John...3 weeks ago Tobias told me yes we have to talk to John. So the next day, I called Det. Anger... I thought well if there going to talk to John, I will give them some of my hold back info...he was to busy to talk...was on his way out of the office...when he didn't return my call...I realized it was the old smoke- and mirrors game again. No one was in search of a child killer, at least no one I knew.

Somewhere, would I find these people in Oakland County who were still alight with public outcry over the seemingly never ending spate of murders.

It's been 25 years....I decided I would join a Coldcase group on the internet...I stared receiving 25-50 e-mails a day wanting to know about this case. It was then I thought I would e-mail the attorney generals office, and the FBI, and ask every one else to do the same...so that is were it is at on this 24 of March 2001.

UPDATE: January 13, 2003:

Although I have never received any kind of reply from any local government official, I must admit I DID hear from a Detroit area Federal Agent about this matter at the end quarter of 2002. His words confirmed MANY things to me. Most importantly the fact that they local governement INDEED are fully aware of this information. This site does not yet give full details to all of the available data. But I have to ask....ever wonder what happened to the killer?? Did he just stop killing...or move out of the area?

UPDATE: January 27,2003:

There is something wrong with this investigation- which is to say....that there is very much in the way of evidence that adds up, but authorites seem unable or unwilling to do the math and arrive at the one conclusion that makes sense... I have been involved in this case for 13 years now and as recently as yesterday Police are still sitting pat...on the same old investigateion...same suspects... Now I ask- if Norbergs DNA didn't match, after his body was exhumed...and he had no were to hold the children- and there are absolutly no matches to him and the crimes, then WHY? Are the cops not moving on...then we have another police dept...that still think Larry Allen Smith a convicted pedaphile, who is in the Az state prison until 2025 and has been there since 1986 for molesting young girls...must be the one...however his DNA did not match either....and can anyone tell me if they know of any case- anywhere-in which a pedaphile..who molested young girls-has ever kept them 4-19 days-bathed them-fed them-killed them-dumped them-but never had sex with them...so why are they not moving on??..and how is it possible for the authorities to contiue misinforming the press for over 25 years-

yep I received a letter from a Detroit free press reporter, who has been on this story from day one and he was told -all the info John gave me was either-not true or was available in the news media- he however could not find it anywere- so if any person in authority can show me were the following was printed- I will concede/ Helen Dagner

Kristine had orange-ish pink appliques on her slacks and was laid down with her jacket open---and how do I Know this to be fact---the police grilled me on this...then taped what I said...and then showed me her drop off photo...and guess what -It was exactly as John said...so if there was no other info...that in it self would be a CLUE...John also told me he picked her up by a bowling ally- What about the map's,like myself..I'm sure the readers of this site-will find it more than a little strange-that when I met John,it was 15 years after the killings,and not only was he able to draw extremely detailed maps of each drop off site-he also remembered all their names,ages,addresses,schools..ect.ect.--What goes far beyond the realms of strangeness or inprobability...is why would John hide a manicure-pedicure set in a shoe-box office..up behind a drawer on a ledge..when he had a large apt.,with not much more than his books in it...was it because it was his souvenier??...after all the children had been freshly manicured-the set was inside a 1970's brocade fabric case. ..and why would John tell me there was NO -blue gremlin...and why would John have a collection of books about latent prints..how to pass a polygraph-how to change your identity,with out leaving a paper trail--and many books on forensics...and how would he know Jill's book was inscribed????-John had motive-means and opportunity-In checking a peretual calander,he was off work or unemployed on the dates of every pick up,murders,and drop off--How could he have a passport that showed he was out of the country on the date of one childs death?..because he had two of them-i saw them..and he told me one was fake-and then there were the letters,were he ordered the passport-and was going to go into the 2nd passport business. Then there is his alibi..his brother?I think they should ask ,the brother if he will take a polygraph ...or what about the sister,that called John before he went for the poly-and said-get out of there...before they find out the family secret...maybe she would take one too...about her knowledge of these events...or what about his mom--who told me she babysitted for John in the 70's...John had NO children at that time.....

UPDATE February 1st:

We've heard from many people even Jerry Tobias himself. I have lots of letters as well as some from a Federal Agent in the area describing HIS OWN interpretation of what the problem REALLY is.

New Developments in Oakland Co. Child Killer Case

According to this..Action News has learned police have narrowed the list of suspects to 12 people.

BUT...accordong to the Daily Tribune on February 5th.....State Police Detective Lt. Ive Edwards and other investigators DENIED reports that they have roughly a dozen suspects that they expect to narrow down to ONE in the coming months.

Oakland County child killings get another look

"There is a new public push to gather and analyze tips and evidence," said Oakland County Sheriff's Lt. Mark Newman. "We still haven't forgot about the victims and everyone wants these cases solved."

(Could it be the web-site and the e-mails we have been sending out over the past 2 years?????)

The broadcast sure got a lot of people looking at the site. Hope to see MORE very soon...still lots of questions I hope to see them ask.

I heard from another original task force member just today....and guess what folks...some of Helen's info was new to him!

UPDATE: February 15, 2003

Seems to be some controversy over there being 12 suspects or not.

But if so...who are these 12 suspects.......are they being watched....for 25 years??

What if they are your neighbor....wouldn't you like to know??

I know it is impossible for police to reveal this type of info...but people should keep this in mind. INDEED there IS an extremely dangerous person out there. I don't want to find out who they are the hard way!

The killer is someone's neighbor!

What about all the police that were involved in this from the beggining or picked it up over the years...how much info were they given??

Helen's suspect...I've been told has been ruled out 4 times! How can we be sure the last time he was ruled out is any more definitive than the 1st three times?

UPDATE: February 15, 2003

I have to ask---What really did happen to the envelope of hair--and composition book,that I gave Det.Anger---Must be on the same shelf,as the first report-that Det.Ray Skiba-Alpena Police Dept.,had given him,as that hasn't turned up either---but then it could be part of that concrete wall-that everyone who talks to us--walks into--real quickly

-Helen Dagner

Her story was very hard for me to swallow too....

UPDATE: March 16, 2003

Statement of Senator Carl Levin For Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing on

"Post-Conviction DNA Testing: When is Justice Served?"

Ironically...now state officials keep DNA evidence in such high regard.

But there was a time....when Helen gave a sample of hair to an official investigating the case.....a sample of John's hair. Later she hears....that the hair was tossed out the window of the car.

Is there any record of Helen giving someone the hair?? If so....where is it?? Has it been compared and ruled out? Can't the compare it to whatever they were going to compare to Norberg?? Evidentally they have something to compare to....or they would not have exhumed him.

Can anyone tell me...is there a record of Helen giving a sample of John's hair to a Detective?

If so...was it compared to other evidence?? Was this the reason that John was ruled out 4 times?

Interesting the other note that Helen sent to me....describing other things found in John's apartment..........more coming soon....

UPDATE March 21, 2003:

"SUCCINYLCHOLINE"

Was this drug used in the murder of these children?? In Helen's notes it is mentioned that she found a half full glass vial of this drug at her suspect's home.

Oakland County Child Slayings-1976-77

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: : : : 1976-77 Oakland County Child Slayings : : : : "In 1976 and 1977, over the course of a thirteen-month period, two boys and two girls, ages ten through twelve, were brutally murdered in Michigan's Oakland County. Their violent deaths triggered the largest murder investigation the state had seen." ......now a ColdCase.....could this be a NEW clue??

: Below is unedited transcript segments from a lady, Helen Dagner, who claims to have known the killer. She has been in contact with authorities in the Oakland County area. She contacted me via the "ColdCases Yahoo discussion group" It is our hope to see this case investigated and hopefully come to some conclusion. : : :

: TESTIMONY by HELEN DAGNER ~ MARCH 2001

: : During the winter months of 1976-77, four children between the ages of 10- : 12 were abducted and killed in towns in and around Oakland County, a : suburban area north of Detroit. Authorities said the children were held : from 4 to 19 days before being killed. They had all been bathed after being : abducted, thus earning the offender the nickname the "BABYSITTER".

:

: VICTIMS:

: Mark Stebbins, 12 of Ferndale was last seen alive in an American Legion : Hall on February 13, 1976. His body was found February 19, 1976,in a : parking lot in Southfield. He was strangled and sexually assaulted, post- : mortem, with an object.

: Jill Robinson, 12 of Royal Oak ran away from her home December 22, 1976. : Her body was found December 26, 1976 dumped along the side of interstate 75 : in Troy. She was killed by a single shotgun blast to the face. She was : fully clothed and still wearing her backpack when she was found. : Kristine Mihelich, 10 was last seen alive January 2, 1977 at 3p.m. at a 7- : Eleven store in Berkley. Her fully clothed body was found 19 days later : dumped off a rural road in Franklin Village. She had been smothered to : death. : Timothy king, 11 was last in a Birmingham parking lot March 16, 1977, at : around 8:30 p.m. His body was found March 22, 1977 in a shallow ditch in : Livonia. He had been suffocated and sexually assaulted post-mortem, with an : object.

: Click Here For Additonal Victim Info and Area Maps

: : Now who would do such a horrible crime, and why?...Could it be a home town : person? : Yes, John lived in Birmingham, attended school, and graduated from High : School in Birmingham...and when he worked, it was also in Oakland : County... : Why did he do this? When I first met John, I didn't know he was a : killer , this was september 1991, and although I was married to a : police officer, I didn't even know that four children had been murder : in Oakland county... : I had met John for coffee at a restaurant...it was by invitation, the : mother of his child, had asked me if I wanted to meet John, I always went : for coffee at that time of day, so I said sure...little did I know : what was to become of this meeting. : The first question John asked me was so what are you doing with your : life...why I said this I will never know...but I said it...oh I'm going to : write a book on serial killers...he said that is a horrible idea, how could : you stand to be around some one like that? I remember saying, "I'm not : judgmental". We weren't through with the first cup of coffee, when he : asked what I knew about the Oakland child killings, I said nothing, : what do you know? The first thing he told me was the guy really took good : care of the children...fed them there favorite foods...cleaned them all : up...and was very nice to them. I said, "Well why did he kill : them?" John said he was saving them from a life as he knew it...that : he was probably living in what should have been a well to do community, yet : his mother might have had to baby-sit to make ends meet...I said, : "John it almost sounds like you know this guy!" He : said well I was interviewed by the original task force...I ask how was : that? His reply was they were interviewing every one in his age group... : We continued talking...then he said would you like to go for coffee : tonight, I could probably help you with your book... : I said well what I really need to do is talk to a serial killer...we all : laughed, and he said well maybe I can help you to find one.

: This started a 9 month, daily coffee meeting with John, 3-6 hrs a day every : day... : That night I ask John what he thought the killers motive was? He started by : telling me, he felt the killer was inadequate socially, most likely : couldn't get a girl friend and wound up doing odd jobs like washing dishes. : He couldn't get a higher education felt he was cheated out of his rightful : place in society...I realized, at some point in the conversation...John was : no longer talking in the third person...he was talking in the first! : When I was driving John home that night, it started to snow, he was sitting : in the front passenger seat, the head lights were cutting a beam in front : of us... : John went into a trance like state and appear to be completely unaware of : anything I said to him or that he was even in the car going down the : road...upon arriving at his apartment he seemed to smoothly shift out of : the trance state...back to his normal self...the whole thing gave me the : creeps. : I didn't know at this time that I would see this same thing ...every time I : was with John, driving down the road, when it started to snow...It was at : least 3 weeks before I realized John was reliving the body drop off : nights...once I had this realization...I started asking more questions. : He was now talking in the first person...he thought his father had money : because he owned 2 homes, but let the family struggle financially, he : attended and all boys Catholic school, which made him feel more out of : place-something happen at that school, a boy was found dead, and there were : rumors of sexual assault, as John told me about this, I felt he had been : sexually assaulted...also a boy that was his friend fell off a water tower : to his death, John was present when it happen...my thought at the time was : John pushed him...he didn't go to the funeral...but his family did. : Just prior to the first murder, John's first girl friend, that he had hoped : to marry, dumped him-because he was broke, with no prospects....It was then : he stared thinking more about the injustices social & financial class : system and how he was a victim of it all- : He wanted to cause the upper class deep and permanent pain, he decided that : since money could be replaced the only way to do it was to strike at their : children, besides this was something he could do, were as taking their : money was beyond his ability...each killing gave him a sense of power and : significance and intellectual superiority...yet some how he felt he was : saving the children... : At the time of the murders, John was writing a book on the economic : collapse, and causing a major depression, ruining the upper : class...bringing them down to his level...he was still working on the book : when I last saw him. : We talked about the murders everyday...a very few words were ever spoken : that didn't included the Oakland County child killings...then one night : when we were having coffee I told John I was having difficulty...not having : ever been to Oakland County...figuring out the body drop off sites...he : took 4 place-mats...and drew the areas...I had never seen anyone draw maps : like that...they were perfect...just like a store bought map...I was : impressed...the next day is when I called the Birmingham police and told : them they had to see these maps...and they had to talk to john as he seem : to have a lot of inside info. : I remember their telling me, they would have to have more info...so that : night at coffee I told John, I don't think you are the killer and you need : to give me some information about each one of the kids that only the : killer ..and the police...and the family would know...he said are you nuts? : When he realized I was going to leave...or he thought I was thinking less : of him...he said, "I put a chicken bone in Tim's pocket" I : told him I thought I had heard that before, then he said : "Kristine had little orange or pink things on her slack's...Jill had a : book in her back pack and a quarter in her pocket." : One of the boys he dropped off with no shoes...he ended up telling me 300 : plus matches to the crimes...then the police came up...he took 2 : polygraph's...showed them a pass port were he was out of the country at the : death of one child...and they let him walk... : I told them Johns passport was a fake...that he had wanted to go into the : second pass port business...but they just couldn't get be on the pass port. : I remember when they called me, late one night at my daughters...he's not : are man Helen...I couldn't believe what he was saying...when they mention : the pass port...I asked if they had someone who knew about these things, to : check it out...they said no...I then asked, did you ask him were he stayed : aboard? No....did you ask him were he ate, who he talked to. NO....well did : you check with INTER-POL, yes...but they couldn't confirm... : I remember thinking...COP'S!!! In fact, I said it a loud...my daughter, a : detective, just looked at me...the next day I called Mr. Robinson, in fact : John had given me his number, I came right out and told him the name of the : book in his daughters back pack...the next day Det. Anger and some other : officer came up to Alpena.. I gave them a sample of John's hair and a note : book of facts, we drove by John's apartment. : They took some photos...I gave them a photo of John...I didn't realize Det. : Anger, had his own suspect...David Norberg...who's body he would exhume : some 8 years later, trying to match his DNA, to a hair found on Tim...so : many years had gone by, but when I read were the DNA didn't match...I had : to call Anger again and ask him if John's hair had matched...he didn't even : remember my giving it to him...he still works with Jerry Tobias on the : case...but he will probably go to his grave...thinking Norberg is the : man....butI know better, no child would have gone with Norberg, as he : always smelled of liquer. He couldn't feed him self...much less the : children, and he certainly wouldn't of bathed the children...and he had : nowhere to keep them for the length of time they were held.

: 8 years after he died, his wife shows up with a necklace...with Kristine's : name on it...that was suppose to have been in his personal stuff...it may : have been...but it took 8 years to find...when the man didn't own a shoe : box full of stuff...besides, I already had met the killer...and yes a child : would have gone with John...3 weeks ago Tobias told me yes we have to talk : to John. So the next day, I called Det. Anger... : I thought well if there going to talk to John, I will give them some of my : hold back info...he was to busy to talk...was on his way out of the : office...when he didn't return my call...I realized it was the old smoke- : and mirrors game again. No one was in search of a child killer, at least no : one I knew.

: Somewhere, would I find these people in Oakland County who were still : alight with public outcry over the seemingly never ending spate of murders.

: It's been 25 years....I decided I would join a Coldcase group on the : internet...I stared receiving 25-50 e-mails a day wanting to know about : this case. It was then I thought I would e-mail the attorney generals : office, and the FBI, and ask every one else to do the same...so that is : were it is at on this 24 of March 2001.

: UPDATE: January 13, 2003:

: Although I have never received any kind of reply from any local government : official, I must admit I DID hear from a Detroit area Federal Agent about : this matter at the end quarter of 2002. His words confirmed MANY things to : me. Most importantly the fact that they local governement INDEED are fully : aware of this information. This site does not yet give full details to all : of the available data. But I have to ask....ever wonder what happened to : the killer?? Did he just stop killing...or move out of the area?

: : UPDATE: January 27,2003:

: There is something wrong with this investigation- which is to say....that : there is very much in the way of evidence that adds up, but authorites : seem unable or unwilling to do the math and arrive at the one conclusion : that makes sense... : I have been involved in this case for 13 years now and as recently as : yesterday Police are still sitting pat...on the same old : investigateion...same suspects... : Now I ask- if Norbergs DNA didn't match, after his body was exhumed...and : he had no were to hold the children- and there are absolutly no matches to : him and the crimes, then WHY? Are the cops not moving on...then we have : another police dept...that still think Larry Allen Smith a convicted : pedaphile, who is in the Az state prison until 2025 and has been there : since 1986 for molesting young girls...must be the one...however his DNA : did not match either....and can anyone tell me if they know of any case- : anywhere-in which a pedaphile..who molested young girls-has ever kept them : 4-19 days-bathed them-fed them-killed them-dumped them-but never had sex : with them...so why are they not moving on??..and how is it possible for the : authorities to contiue misinforming the press for over 25 years-

: yep I received a letter from a Detroit free press reporter, who has been on : this story from day one and he was told -all the info John gave me was : either-not true or was available in the news media- he however could not : find it anywere- so if any person in authority can show me were the : following was printed- I will concede/ : Helen Dagner

: : Kristine had orange-ish pink appliques on her slacks and was laid down with : her jacket open---and how do I Know this to be fact---the police grilled me : on this...then taped what I said...and then showed me her drop off : photo...and guess what -It was exactly as John said...so if there was no : other info...that in it self would be a CLUE...John also told me he picked : her up by a bowling ally- : What about the map's,like myself..I'm sure the readers of this site-will : find it more than a little strange-that when I met John,it was 15 years : after the killings,and not only was he able to draw extremely detailed maps : of each drop off site-he also remembered all their : names,ages,addresses,schools..ect.ect.--What goes far beyond the realms of : strangeness or inprobability...is why would John hide a manicure-pedicure : set in a shoe-box office..up behind a drawer on a ledge..when he had a large : apt.,with not much more than his books in it...was it because it was his : souvenier??...after all the children had been freshly manicured-the set was : inside a 1970's brocade fabric case. : ..and why would John tell me there was NO -blue gremlin...and why would John : have a collection of books about latent prints..how to pass a polygraph-how : to change your identity,with out leaving a paper trail--and many books on : forensics...and how would he know Jill's book was inscribed????-John had : motive-means and opportunity-In checking a peretual calander,he was off work : or unemployed on the dates of every pick up,murders,and drop off--How could : he have a passport that showed he was out of the country on the date of one : childs death?..because he had two of them-i saw them..and he told me one was : fake-and then there were the letters,were he ordered the passport-and was : going to go into the 2nd passport business. : Then there is his alibi..his brother?I think they should ask ,the brother if : he will take a polygraph ...or what about the sister,that called John before : he went for the poly-and said-get out of there...before they find out the : family secret...maybe she would take one too...about her knowledge of these : events...or what about his mom--who told me she babysitted for John in the : 70's...John had NO children at that time.....

: UPDATE February 1st:

: We've heard from many people even Jerry Tobias himself. : I have lots of letters as well as some from a Federal Agent in the area : describing HIS OWN interpretation of what the problem REALLY is. : :

: New Developments in Oakland Co. Child Killer Case

: According to this..Action News has learned police have narrowed the : list of suspects to 12 people.

: BUT...accordong to the Daily Tribune on February 5th.....State Police : Detective Lt. Ive Edwards and other investigators DENIED reports that they : have roughly a dozen suspects that they expect to narrow down to ONE in the : coming months.

: Oakland County child killings get another look

: "There is a new public push to gather and analyze tips and evidence," said : Oakland County Sheriff's Lt. Mark Newman. "We still haven't forgot about : the victims and everyone wants these cases solved."

: (Could it be the web-site and the e-mails we have been sending out : over the past 2 years?????)

: : The broadcast sure got a lot of people looking at the site. Hope to see : MORE very soon...still lots of questions I hope to see them ask.

: I heard from another original task force member just today....and guess : what folks...some of Helen's info was new to him!

: UPDATE: February 15, 2003

: Seems to be some controversy over there being 12 suspects or not.

: But if so...who are these 12 suspects.......are they being watched....for 25 years??

: What if they are your neighbor....wouldn't you like to know??

: I know it is impossible for police to reveal this type of info...but people should keep this in : mind. INDEED there IS an extremely dangerous person out there. I don't want : to find out who they are the hard way!

: The killer is someone's neighbor!

: What about all the police that were involved in this from the beggining or picked it up over : the years...how much info were they given??

: Helen's suspect...I've been told has been ruled out 4 times! How can we be sure the last : time he was ruled out is any more definitive than the 1st three times?

: : UPDATE: February 15, 2003

: I have to ask---What really did happen to the envelope of hair--and composition book,that I : gave Det.Anger---Must be on the same shelf,as the first report-that Det.Ray Skiba-Alpena : Police Dept.,had given him,as that hasn't turned up either---but then it could be part of that : concrete wall-that everyone who talks to us--walks into--real quickly

: -Helen Dagner

: Her story was very hard for me to swallow too....

: : UPDATE: March 16, 2003

: Statement of Senator Carl Levin For Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing on

: "Post-Conviction DNA Testing: When is Justice Served?"

: Ironically...now state officials keep DNA evidence in such high regard.

: But there was a time....when Helen gave a sample of hair to an official : investigating the case.....a sample of John's hair. Later she hears....that : the hair was tossed out the window of the car.

: Is there any record of Helen giving someone the hair?? If so....where is : it?? Has it been compared and ruled out? Can't the compare it to whatever : they were going to compare to Norberg?? Evidentally they have something to : compare to....or they would not have exhumed him.

: Can anyone tell me...is there a record of Helen giving a sample of John's : hair to a Detective?

: If so...was it compared to other evidence?? Was this the reason that John : was ruled out 4 times?

: Interesting the other note that Helen sent to me....describing other things : found in John's apartment..........more coming soon....

: : UPDATE March 21, 2003:

: "SUCCINYLCHOLINE"

: Was this drug used in the murder of these children?? In Helen's notes it is mentioned that : she found a half full glass vial of this drug at her suspect's home.

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Last changed: November 23, 2004